Episode 29: Carolyn Betts Fleming, CEO & Founder, Betts Recruiting

Carolyn talks about how she built Bett's Recruiting into what it is today, why she made Austin the new HQ and her 'long-view' on recruiting & partnerships.

This week on The CoSell Show we are thrilled to have with us Carolyn Betts Fleming, Founder and CEO at Betts Recruiting.


Topics Discussed:

    • How Carolyn built Bett's Recruiting into what it is today

    • Austin as a tech hub, and why Carolyn decided to make Austin the new HQ

    • Carolyn's "long-view" on recruiting and partnerships



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Pete Ryan: [00:00:09] Hi, thanks for tuning in everyone. You're listening and watching the Cosell show. I'm here with my good friend and advisor for Cosell, Carolyn Betts. How are you doing Carolyn 

Carolyn Betts: [00:00:21] I'm great Pete, how are you today? 

Pete Ryan: [00:00:23] Awesome. Yeah. Thanks again for joining. So Carolyn is the founder and CEO of an awesome recruiting firm based in San Francisco that specializes in really, you know, all things, revenues, sales, marketing, et cetera re recruiting company. And so Carolyn, yeah, maybe just as a starting point, it'd be great for you to talk about your background, that, and kind of what's led you to founding best recruiting. 

Carolyn Betts: [00:00:48] Yeah, well again, thanks for having me, Pete.

It's always great to see you and happy to hear that you and Kat are keeping warm and Austin definitely crazy times. 

Pete Ryan: [00:01:00] Oh yeah. We've got about eight inches of snow and yeah, we're kind of running low on supplies where we're actually one food right now. 

Carolyn Betts: [00:01:10] Well, I know. And from what I heard you, can't just like call DoorDash. Like a lot of the restaurants are closed and Yeah. So anyway, well hopefully it clears up soon, so life can return to normal. But yeah, so, you know, it's interesting. You and I met in gosh, Oh eight, but prior to that, I went to college on the East coast, the university of North Carolina Bay area native. And so after college, I moved back to the Bay and I fell into sales. So my first job was selling advertisements in the yellow page directory. So a lot of times when we think about yellow pages or that term, you know, sites like Yelp or. You know, things like that, but this was a book that people would look up, you know, instead of typing into the internet, you would go into the book and find things. And so I felt advertising in that. And after about a year of door to door sales, like.

Yeah. You just show up, literally show up. Like I would try and call to make appointments. Cause I thought it was more efficient and that one will sometimes, but if they didn't, you know, if you had an ad and you were trying to renew it and they weren't answering, you would just legit show up at their business and say, Hey, I'm here, you know, with your yellow page directory.

So after about a year of doing that, I decided I wanted to move on. It was a great learning experience, but You know, the internet, Google was in existence at the time. So it was some pretty stiff competition for the good old yellow page directory. And so I fell into it knowing you, 

Pete Ryan: [00:02:56] I bet you crush that text now. You know, 

Carolyn Betts: [00:03:00] I did, it was so funny though, because they had this thing called sales per day that they would, it was like a metric back then and I'm sure it's. Still is right. You know, number of volume of transactions in addition to revenue size. And, but my sales per day, I mean, I didn't care. I would sell like these little ads and the, obviously you paid more for selling the big ads, but.

But, you know, I sold a couple of those too, but those were not quite as easy, I guess, or it just, I was so young, you know, like these lawyers buying a full page ad from a, you know, 23 year old has never been in business before. So I went, I was on Craigslist and I found this ad and it was Is that a hundred K you know, with all these pluses plus plus plus plus plus, you know, high base high commission and like, Ooh, this job sounds great.

So no, it was for a recruiting company. Well, it turned out back then with my companies would post these ads, you know, in order to incentivize applicants to apply. And then you go through and see who's good. And then you use those candidates to place in jobs and 

Pete Ryan: [00:04:11] It was just kind of like before the CareerBuilder monster era or like right around that time.

Carolyn Betts: [00:04:16] Yeah. You know, like when I started at Andiamo, which is this company I worked at for four years of boutique in San Francisco, but you gave agency, it was Craigslist was big monster. We used career builder was around hot jobs. So, you know, just like most companies are, you know, you think about tech nowadays where there's all these different Tools in your tech stack, there was various different ways, you know, very similar to today with fewer options of how you would bind candidates.

But, you know, to be honest, like. For what we did, which was finding salespeople and sales and admin was what I specialized in it on BMO. It was yep. Yes. We use all those things, but also, you know, I found pretty early on in my career that the best candidates and the best way to find, I mean, LinkedIn didn't even really exist for the beginning of my career at, on the AMO.

And so. The best way to do it was through referrals. So, you know, I work with you on a job. You like me, I help you. And then you would, you know, I call you to see how's it going and relationship going. And you, you know, you having worked with, and, you know, This is pre you really being there, but imagine from Oracle, right?

How many people, you know, from your time at Oracle, where if I had a job opportunity and you just moved jobs, and I said, Hey, I have this new company, you know, not calling about you at all. I would always make that very clear because I wasn't, I wanted people to stay at those jobs because it's not good for somebody career to bounce, bounce, bounce.

And I'd say, who else do you know? You know, I'm sure some of the people that you knew from Oracle or wherever. I might be looking. And that was really how I you know, I built. A long-term, you know, and that was at, on the Yama within my experience there, but it was mostly from referrals. And then obviously if I wasn't getting referrals I would have this stack of papers that, you know, cause we had it all on paper.

And so every Friday or so I would just call through all the people that I had placed, you know, over a certain period of time and just say hi and check in. And I wouldn't call the same people every week. I would rotate through the people. It was like my own little version of a CRM for this whole concept of, you know, really building long-term relationships with the people that I had worked with.

And to be fair, even if I didn't find them a job and they found a job elsewhere, I could still call those people and ask for referrals because I was generally very competent that. Yeah, I had done the right thing and treated people with a lot of respect and help them get opportunities that they could have gotten on their own.

But it's also really easy, not easy. I don't know if I want to say that necessarily, but when there's a person who's working with them, All of these various different companies and you can tell them what types of things you're interested in. And they can say, Ooh, this hiring manager, that person, this company I've met this individual.

It really is a great experience as opposed to just going online and looking through job postings and not really being able to differentiate one company from the next. Because a lot of it was housing.

Pete Ryan: [00:07:35] Yeah. And it, it, it, yeah, it feels like you from day zero, right. You kind of took this like really hands-on, you know You know, well, a long-term view of, of building relationships. Right. And you know, as you know, I founded a company prior to Cosell a Google hire and like our whole kind of thesis was like, Oh, well, we can kind of like take kind of the relationship out of recruiting, which like we learned the hard way.

It really like through that, right. Because like You, you know, your job is really spend what, 40, 50, 60 hours of your life, right. A week. And yeah, you, you know, and, and like, that's, you, you need to, you need to have trust in the person that's helping you find that job. And I feel like you've done a terrific job at doing that. Right. 

Carolyn Betts: [00:08:25] Well, thank you. Yeah, it was, it was just that was. Back then, right. You think about that was Oh four to Oh eight. Like LinkedIn did come on to the forefront. And I was one of the earlier people that started using that. And, you know, LinkedIn was always, you know, but yeah. I think the people I remember. Oh yeah. I remember on LinkedIn, how they had that LinkedIn open networker thing. Can I remember? Yeah. I was like, Ooh, this is good. I'm going to put that on my LinkedIn. And you know, the person I was with at the time worked at LinkedIn and he was like, Do not do that really tacky. And I, I like didn't really get like that.

That was kind of tacky. So I did it. I, I obviously ended up moving it, but my point is, right. That even the tools that allow for you to leverage technology, to build relationships really are best used when the relationship is there. Right. You know, you Carolyn you know, X, Y, Z person. Unfortunately now sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. And, but the real power is when I actually know who the person is and I can say, Oh yeah, Pete, you want an intro? Like happy to tee that up for you. Because if you don't, you know, it's like, okay, sorry, you don't actually know that person, but. I guess the point is even technology that is supposed to give people more access to each other and to build networks.

Really the real power is when you actually know people and have a good relationship with them. And trust has been built. Well, 

Pete Ryan: [00:10:07] you have, I mean, it's, it's like, you know, I could ask you about most companies, right. And you'd have like a pulse on like what's going on right within that company. And so that, and also with candidates too, it's like, You know, you kind of know, okay, this, this person is really interested in this type of manager or company size or, you know, technology, what have you.

And so, yeah. Do you do, like, are you just always collecting these data points from people you're like chatting with and like yeah. How do you, how do you keep all that organized and 

Carolyn Betts: [00:10:42] Yeah. So I, you know, to be honest and, and my team and everyone at bets will be happy for me. I don't do recruiting really anymore.

I love it. At the second. I get a chance. I have a new client that came in through my network. And I might know somebody that could be a good candidate. Like I will generally call that person and tell them about the company and then hand it off to my team. But the majority of my time is now spent, you know, doing other bigger picture things for bets and, you know, Building a company that can train all of our employees in a much more scalable way than need was doing all these things myself.

So, you know, we have tools. We have, you know, obviously we have Salesforce and you lots of different. I mean, I don't have to go through our whole tech stack and bore everyone. Who's listening to this, but Yeah, it's a combination of leveraging tech and some people have really good memories, which was always, you have a great memory.

Oh, it's just like now I know for our team, like, it's funny because when, when you're really good at something and. You know what it's like to be able to just remember things, you actually, as an employer, guess you want that quality, but you need that person to put what they remember in. So everyone else has access to that information in their head.

And I have to admit that that was not one of my strong suits and you know, I, I would do it. So it's funny. I went and then from. CareerBuilder I moved or sorry from Andiamo. I moved on to careerbuilder.com. And so I is similar to you when you started go go higher. I was like, you know, I, I was recruiting for all these technology companies.

I did not have technology sales background. I was thinking, okay, well I do have a recruitment background and I majored in advertising in college, which, you know, clearly I haven't done much with that, but I realized I could probably get a job. Oh my God. It's so funny. Cause I had interviewed at the ladders with Brendan back in during that same job.

Oh, Brendan Cassie. Yeah. Yeah. Founder. So I interviewed there, I interviewed at career builder and I interviewed at Yahoo hot jobs. And I ended up pretty much getting all the jobs by the time Brendan reached out that he was hiring, I was in Costa Rica and had already accepted the job at CareerBuilder.

And you know, it was interesting because I had a really. I loved my experience at CareerBuilder. Like it was so fun. I learned so much, I was selling into big companies and you know, I had my Amex account. I was traveling all over the country. I had access to the executives and it was, I mean, the events that they had for their kickoff, it was like nothing I've ever seen before.

But the challenge was, you know, when my clients would post a job on CareerBuilder, you would get. You know, hundreds and hundreds of applicants. And one of the success metrics we used back then was called EOI expressions of interest. And so my clients would say stuff like, and then there was tact, like kind of narrow that down.

But, you know, as a company, when you're. You know, you post something and then there's just so much labor going into sorting through and trying to figure out who the right fit is. And so, you know, CareerBuilder was definitely a great technology and, and, you know, there's various different verticals that the tool was better for than others, but it.

It just didn't feel to me like the best experience for either the company or for the talent that would have to apply for so many jobs that may or may not be the right fit to find the right thing. And so you know, ultimately I left to start bets and that was fresh 11 years ago, 11 years ago now. 

Pete Ryan: [00:14:45] And congrats.

Did you do anything special for your 10 year anniversary and something like that?

Carolyn Betts: [00:14:56] Yeah, no, we haven't. And I think we will do something maybe more internally. I'd love to do once. This all is Behind us. I think, you know, my vision for this would likely be doing some micro events within the, the markets that we're in with are very much like we would do before the merger. We would have all those dinners and you know, have you been to some of our tech crawls?

So I think we might do localize it. It's events for the community and markets that we, you know, As app LA Chicago, New York, Austin, and then do a company-wide team event somewhere where we fly everybody, most likely to Austin, you know, where we moved our headquarters. Yeah,it's great. It's it's I never realized that moving to central would just be so convenient. 

Pete Ryan: [00:16:00] San Francisco, New York, Chicago. And you know, it's not, you know, you're not flying across the entire country. It's like half the country. So it's, yeah, that's a good thing. 

Carolyn Betts: [00:16:09] The short, quick trip for everybody. And then the people that are there, it's still exciting because everyone else shows up and you know, you get to see everybody and it will do it.

It'll be off-site. So it's not going to be like in our, so that's kind of what I'm thinking, but Yeah, well, not going to spend too much time on that.

Pete Ryan: [00:16:31] So you're at CareerBuilder, right. And I'd love to hear like the story of, you know you know, like making the leap right. To start your own company. That's, that's a huge leap, right. Professionally, personally, et cetera. And like, you know, what what drew you to, to do that? And And, you know what, yeah.

What, like what excited you most about it is? Yeah, probably would be my, 

Carolyn Betts: [00:17:00] I think a lot of us that start companies and they, you go into it and just super excited about doing things like your way, right? Like a way that you think is really great and will be helpful to the world, et cetera. And so I think I wanted to start my own company when I was leaving on the AMO.

I also didn't really think that's the right thing to do with like, Oh, Hey, I'm going to quit my job. And then go compete with the person that taught me everything I know about recruiting. I still have. So much respect for you know, the CEO of  and, and I, I still had more to learn and I'm always obviously continuously learning, but I think that it was really good to have that experience going to CareerBuilder, working for a bigger company.

I remember one time. Three months in. I asked my boss, I was like, what's procurement. He's like, Oh okay. I guess you don't know what you don't know. I was like, wait, there's a whole part of a company that just like ruins your deal. They blocking crap to me. This is like a thing. And you know, I just remember those little things that I learned at CareerBuilder that you know, I would.

I probably would learn eventually, but just working at a larger company and understanding, I think having the experience of working at it, you know, it's horrible. There's not massive, but it's much bigger than, you know, local yellow page or Ruggie recruitment company. So, you know, I, and you know, at the time The person, and this is actually how we met.

We had gone over to LinkedIn and I did not. And we've talked about this. I think I had $10,000 saved up in the bank when I started bets. And I had just gotten back when I had started at CareerBuilder from a. Six month trip around the world. So I pretty much spent most of my money traveling, not working,so I didn't have a lot left. And and anyway, I don't need to tell the whole financial story, but the point was, you know, I was in a situation where. I have a little bit of runway financially because I had somebody else that could pay rent, et cetera. And and I was able to focus, but I mean, I never really knew how long it was going to take and how expensive it was going to be to get things up and running and, and little things that you don't know what you don't know, like, like AR.

Right. Like, I always like as a regular person who like knows what late fees look like, and you don't want to be somebody that doesn't pay your bills. Right. I get my credit card bill. I might wait till the last day that it's due to the bill. Right. But, you know, I always make sure I pay it on time. And, but with corporate. It doesn't always work that way. You send an invoice and not every company pays immediately. And when you're really living, you know, and when you start your own company, it's different than, you know, a paycheck to paycheck type person. Cause you're really like. Waiting for people to pay you. And there's like, there there's a date that they say they're going to pay, but it doesn't necessarily, always happen that way.

And so th that was just really interesting, but yeah, when I went and started bets, it was really, you know, I wanted to work for myself. I saw a better way to do things. I also thought, you know, if I make a couple of placements a month, I'll make more money than I do here. We're builder. And, you know, 

Pete Ryan: [00:20:42] Your own business, right?

Carolyn Betts: [00:20:43] Yeah, exactly. And I'll just really, you know, love what I'm doing. And honestly, I still do, but we're making more than one or two placements a month. 

Pete Ryan: [00:20:53] Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's incredible. It's incredible what you built. And and so, yeah. Yeah. Was there ever a moment in the history of, of bats where you know, you. Yeah, I try to frame my question here. Yeah. Was there ever like a moment in the history of bats where, you know, like, I don't know, there was this something scary happened. Right. And you were like, Hey like, and, and it kind of changed the trajectory of the company in a way. Right. And maybe, you know, I'm sure over the course of 11 years, right?

Like, it's been. You know, kind of ups and downs and like, like any company. Right. But, you know I w you know, it, it does seem like you've always taken a very long-term approach at your business, which has always been, I've always admired that. Right. And, you know, yeah. W was there anything that ever happened like that, or have you just been like pretty lucky throughout?

Carolyn Betts: [00:21:57] No. You know, and I think, I don't really believe in luck. Per se yeah. People just get lucky, right? Maybe there's some situations like the lottery or like even the laundry, like you had to buy that ticket, like the odds aren't great, but you know, whatever, that's probably not the best example for this podcast, but And I think the, one of the things, and this is something that we've talked about where, you know, I I'm encouraging you to join EO.

Once you get to the place where you know that you're a candidate, because there are so many things that happen. You know, in a company that are annoying. Right. But between, you know, you think about, especially when you're in a people business, right. So, and I'll give you some examples, like, you know, a client, you know, rescinds an offer from a candidate that already quit their job.

Right. And the offers rescinded for something that's completely out of that candidates control. Okay. Or. You know, somebody that you just pump up as this amazing employee of the company quit, or, you know, a competitor does a smear campaign on your organization or, you know, whatever that is. And you know, there's just, there's a lot and I can go on and on and on with these various different examples of challenges that you go through as an entrepreneur and as a business owner.

Always right. And good days and there's bad days, right? Yeah. There's really great days, really bad days. But you know, when I over time and then, then there's the recency effect too. Right. So when you ask somebody who's been in business for as long as we have, and that, you know, I'm not saying, Oh, it's so great that we've been in business so long.

Like I love it because we do have a lot of these relationships and people know who we are and we have. Built a really great reputation in the industry. But you know, there's anyway. I mean there's 

Pete Ryan: [00:24:03] there. Yeah. I feel like that that's, that's really Yeah. I mean, that's really, what's kept your, your business just growing and like, you've, it seems like you've just always pushed forward and you've you've always put people first, I would say.

Right. Necessarily, you know, and like, for instance, like when I was like looking to kind of find my next adventure after LinkedIn, right? Like. You know, that experience of working with you to, to you know, find us, you know find double Dutch. Right. And I, I learned a ton from double Dutch and I was you know, basically mentored by the founders.

And so I was eventually looking to start my own business and I felt like you knew that that's what I was looking for and it, you know, it and so, you know, I guess yeah, H how do you Yeah. How do you kind of like replicate yourself right across your entire team? And like what, how do you think about that?

Right. Because it sounds like you, you know, obviously you kind of have this bigger picture on things and you're wanting, you know, everyone to kind of be it. Yeah. Essentially as good as you, right? Like how do you, you know, 

Carolyn Betts: [00:25:18] it's interesting because. There's actually, and this is one thing that I think is really interesting about coastal and why, when you asked me to be an advisor, I was really excited about it, right?

Because relationships are at the heart of, you know, business and people and yeah. People in my opinion, buy in that, you know, this is a very popular thing. If you listen to people talking on LinkedIn, you know, they buy from people, right. And, and they buy from people. They like people they trust and people that they think are going to do the right thing for them and their company.

And, and so when. When we hire bets and you know, we've done. You know, and that's something that actually, you know, when I think about the, and you and I have talked a lot about this, of like building diverse organizations, and I think that's one of the things that I did like. Unintentionally wrong where I actually you know, hired a bunch of people that were very similar to me. And 

Pete Ryan: [00:26:30] it's kind of like a you know, sometimes just like a thing, right? It's like you, your height, maybe you might hire your friends. Right. 

Carolyn Betts: [00:26:41] Or people through your network, right? Like a lot of people were Katie Hughes, my first employee and she's doing a podcast on our podcast with me. You know, she went to the university of North Carolina and like, we both had like gravitated toward the same things.

And so now what we're looking at. Is identifying what those qualities are in people. And we have a whole process and rubric, et cetera, that we're grading on based off of that, as opposed to, I mean, I remember the beer test from the early days and it's like, now people that do that, it's like, no, no, no, no, no.

Like you can't hire people just based off somebody. You want to have a beer with. Like that's no longer you know, PC, but that was like a thing. It was like, it was a step. It was like next step beer test, you know, like, and all at bets, but like for other client companies and So, I guess when w the real question that you asked was how do I replicate myself?

And I think what it is is recognizing the things that you do to make yourself successful and great process around that and training. And so, where, and it's very simple, like, you know, one of the first things we ask and you actually alluded to this, that we actually have a real process for that is fill me in, you know, what are you looking for?

Right, right. It's a very natural question. And then, you know, and some people get a little process-y with, it would just fine. I'd rather have people get all the information. And we almost thought the one, two threes. And so we have it where people kind of walked through the three things that are most important to them.

And so is it more money? Is it location? Is it leadership? Is it, you know, growth opportunity within, is it equity? Is it the type of product that you're selling? I mean, there's so many different things in sales that can differentiate one company from the next. And if somebody says leadership. And you're pitching them on money.

Like, that's just not gonna, like, they're gonna be like you, did you listen? And so, you know, we teach listening skills, we teach, you know, understanding what people are saying. We teach like taking what those things are that people are looking for and how to figure out which companies that we're working with.

Have those types of, you know, like. What that makes sense. Right. And so we have our employees learn the leaders. We have them understand the compensation. Obviously location is kind of thrown everything up in the air, but it is a big thing. You know, some of our clients are like, they're going to need, you know, to be in the office.

Like even now, like, yes, if they had a major problem with it fine. But some clients are like, we're an in-office company, or we're doing, COVID testing this, this, this, and this. And if somebody wants a, you know, Work from anywhere culture. Then that company is not going to be the right fit for them. Somebody else that wants to work at a company where they want to be hit pocket with the leader, they actually find that they work better in an office.

You know, they want to be part of you know, whatever it is like, you know, cause a lot of people will be like, nobody's going to want to go to an office. It's like, well actually there are some people that might want to do that for the right opportunity. Anyways. It's kind of interesting when you think about all the nuances of the various different ways.

But I think what we do is we take what works, figure out how to create process around it, through all the various different steps and then continue to people, you know, teach people how to continue to build genuine relationships. 

Pete Ryan: [00:30:11] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so Yeah. Like w so you obviously moved beds to Austin, right.

And, you know, how's it going? And how do you like Austin 

Carolyn Betts: [00:30:23] to be clear? We did not move that stop stun. We have always been, not always, but you know, you and I would hang out and you'd come to some of our events. We've been operating in Austin for over six years now. And so when 

Pete Ryan: [00:30:39] you're, how did the curve to, you know, set up shop here?

Carolyn Betts: [00:30:43] Yeah. And we did move our headquarters Austin, but it wasn't like this random thing that we're like, Ooh, Austin's hot right now. What happened was our San Francisco Lee's had It was coming to an end in September of 2020. And, you know, with everyone, you know, we, we looked very closely at our expenses as a business and any of our offices that we did not have to continue our leases with.

We decided to get out of those leases. And so we still have office space in Manhattan and in Austin, and we have team members throughout the country. And, but it was really actually a personal decision. My, my husband and I with all of this wanted you know, warmer weather and the irony of what's happening in Austin right now.

You know, I guess that's one thing that's not happening there right now, but we wanted more space. We, we wanted to be in a place that Was weighing, you know, business and safety in a way where we could continue to leave late lead, somewhat normal lives. So that was very appealing for us in Texas as well.

And and you know, so, so the reason we moved the headquarters, there was more of a, a personal decision and a business. So obviously Texas is a lot more of a business friendly state than California is. But it really came down to where we wanted to live personally versus like, let's get out of the Bay area.

I mean, our company was born in the Bay area. I'm from the Bay area of the last majority of our clients are Bay area, California companies. You know, we have New York, you gave, we have companies from everywhere, but you know, the venture capital community from the Bay area is still where a lot of our business comes from.

So anyway, we're not running from state. We were running to Texas really for personal reasons. 

Pete Ryan: [00:32:37] Yeah. And then do you feel like, because of COVID the just the, the talent pool, right? The kind of the. You know yes. Supply of candidates, right. Is really opened up beyond like, you know, the city's geography or are you kind of seeing that companies are still looking to, you know, they're expecting, Oh, you know, COVID is going to be over and we're going to have, you know, we still have our office.

We're going to move everyone back there. So we need to be finding candidates in that specific city. Right. 

Carolyn Betts: [00:33:06] We see it across the board. And you know, one of my favorite things that people used to always say was like for the right person. And I'm like for the right person, sounds like spinny. Right? Okay.

Okay, well for the right person, that can be anywhere in the world. And so right now, our funnel is so huge because we're looking for this like purple squirrel type of person that may or may not exist. But it's crazy because actually it is working out that way that like certain companies, like we have a Chicago based client, for example, that they want.

They wanted people in Chicago to be in their inside sales team, but they were open to people anywhere that came from their industry. So they were specific about it. Right. Which is important. You're going to be asking for like, Hey, let's just open up the whole country. Right. Because it just gets to be, you know, nobody wants to come to bats and see 50 canvas.

Right. You want to come to us and get, you know, the right number of very vetted, qualified, you know, good people for the opportunities. And so, but they've been hiring people, it's a nonprofit technology company and they've been hiring people, you know you know, all over that, have that experience. And so yeah, it has opened up a lot.

I do, I, I think that people. I am seeing and, you know, you'd have to ask my team, but I think what it is there's is most companies are open to people anywhere. They have a lot more flexibility, but the ones that do intend to go back to an office or have a hybrid model would prefer to have people in pods or in those locations.

That could go to an office. But you know, like we just hired a new trainer, a new head of learning and development in Connecticut. You know, she could go to our Manhattan office, she can also jump on a plane and come to Austin, but she's not going to be required to go to any office ever. And she could have just as easily been in Denver and, you know, gone on those same trips.

So Yeah, I think it really is depending on the company. And yeah, I wish I could give you more concrete. 

Pete Ryan: [00:35:27] No, no worries. Yeah. So what do you feel about kind of these like new hot hotspots, right. You know, like Austin, Nashville, Miami yeah. Do you feel like. Personally, I feel like, like, Austin, it makes a lot of sense.

Obviously you ha you have the climate, you have all these larger companies, you know, got Elon Musk will be here, you know, but I'm still like, I'm still trying to figure out okay. It's like, is, is Miami really a thing. Right. And I don't know, from like a recruiting perspective, are you, are you helping companies hire in Miami and or Nashville or any of these other places or is it kind of. Yeah, 

Carolyn Betts: [00:36:09] Nashville has been a place that we've hired people. You know, we're not seeing as much in Miami but some of my friends in finance, like a lot of our new Yorker people like the bets clients from New York that have moved to Austin, I spend time with, they're seeing more people that they know moving there, which is interesting.

I'm not, this is all completely anecdotal information, but from what we're seeing, it's the, you know, There are people are more willing to hire people from companies that are relevant for them, anywhere that they are. And Nashville has been a place that tech companies have been building sales offices. You know, we've worked with event right there, keep trucking.

There's like a whole list of I'm blanking on some of them. So, but I'm not, I haven't seen any of our clients be like, Oh, Let's get some people in Miami, Denver, salt Lake, you know, the, the places Phoenix has been on the, on the list. So, yeah, it's interesting. I keep seeing, I keep seeing Miami too, and I'm like, huh.

Pete Ryan: [00:37:23] But yeah, maybe it's just like, you know, Twitter's just loving Miami or something and. You know yeah. Who knows? And, and, and so yeah, I just have like one last closing question with you, and again, thanks for taking the time to meet. So you, you've obviously talked to thousands and thousands of candidates and companies in your career.

Obviously, you know kind of less now, obviously you have a team to do that, but. What, like, what are some characteristics in salespeople that you've kind of noticed through like all this pattern recognition of like, what makes like a really, you know, rockstar salesperson, 

Carolyn Betts: [00:38:02] you know, it's interesting. I think that you have to be yourself, right.

Bring your genuine self to work. And, but I also think it's like people that truly care about being successful and learning their trade. Ended up being phenomenal. And there's the, you know, this is kind of an old tweet, the art and the science, right? The art is the building genuine relationships and the science.

Right. And this is a lot of what we're doing with Cosell. Like the, like the art is okay. Let's leverage people that have these, you know, already have these relationships, but you have really developed a system around that. Right. People that I think are the most successful, understand the nuances of building real relationships and having real human connection that, but they also have a solid process and system that they follow for ongoing continued success.

And, you know, the biggest thing is that like, They don't let the losses get to them. You know, it's like, Hey, you win some you lose. You're moving on. And, and, you know, I've also always realized that the loss is never you know, anytime that you have a, you lose a big deal or, you know, somebody that you really like quit or whatever it is that sucks that happens.

The client fires, you. If you have like a lot of good stuff happening, that stuff never seems to be as negative as if you, you know, that's the only thing you're like.

Pete Ryan: [00:39:45] Yeah. Personally, I have kind of days where I'm just like clicking and everything's going great. And then obviously there's days where it's like, you know, as a founder, you're like, Oh shoot. Like just something bad has happened. And Yeah. And so actually one thing I've done is I've actually like listed out all the good things that have happened.

Right. Probably like within the last two years. And like, you know, I have that on a Trello board and like Yeah. Before a lot of times, like before a big call or meeting. Right. I like, look at that just as like a reminder to like, you know, stay positive and like, no matter what happens. But it seems like with you, like you every day, you kind of wake up with like, you know, you're super optimistic and positive and yeah.

Like how do you do it? 

Carolyn Betts: [00:40:33] Fake it till you make it. Yeah. You know, I think everyone goes through the same up and ups and downs. Right. And I, you know, to your point, I did, one of my friends recommended that I start a gratitude journal and it is crazy how just, you know, thinking about like right now, I was like, Oh, I should go write my gratitude journal after this call.

And like, Oh, I'm happy that I happen to be. Second Phoenix, instead of being an Austin like that, I have wifi that's operating and power and you know, like not everyone has that right now, but you know, when you focus on the things and that's just a silly example. Right now today, but you know, I'm grateful that, you know, there's so many things that I go through that you can just think of.

Like, you know, that you're grateful that, you know, you can go out and watch the sunset from your, you know, new pool or grateful that you got the boat slip or that you get to take your friends out on whatever it is that is happening in your life. And if you just do that every day you tend to think about things more positively and the little negative things that happen every day to everybody don't seem to be as big of a deal.

Pete Ryan: [00:41:47] Yeah. I love it. Well, Hey, listen, Carolyn, thanks so much. And I, yeah, I'll, I'll basically publicly say it now. I feel super grateful for having you as an advisor and a friend. And and thanks again. And so I guess if anyone has any questions about. You know, anything that we discussed or, you know, if they need help with recruiting, like what's the best way for them to contact you?

Carolyn Betts: [00:42:08] Yeah. Just email me directly. Carolyn@Bettsrecruiting.com. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. We check all that stuff all the time. So yeah, I'd be happy to chat with anybody and whether it's a job you know, connection, partnership, et cetera, always happy to chat and yeah, can't wait to see you soon back in Austin. And Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to see. 

Pete Ryan: [00:42:35] Yeah. Thanks Carolyn

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